Products & Services
Head to head – N86 8MP Vs N82
By JBC on 30 July 2009
GLOBAL – There’s been plenty of discussion around the N86 8MP and the fact it doesn’t come with a Xenon flash. There’s good reason, as to why, some of which we outlined in the interview with Damian Dinning, the man behind both devices. Damian himself wanted to highlight the low light performance differences of both devices so set up a true like for like test which he’s shared with Conversations.
The test was conducted at a controlled lighting facility in Nokia’s UK HQ in Southwood. Using precise lighting control, Damian was able to exactly control the conditions for the shoot, using the same set to create like for like examples. The room itself can recreate specific types of lighting including daylight and tungsten and offers the user specific control over the amount of light (measured in Lux) used in the room at any time.
Damian used a range of light settings to recreate different environments. 200 Lux is a typical office environment and in this instance the N82 relied on a flash whilst the N86 8MP was able to capture an image without one. The N86 8MP typically requires a flash in far fewer situations than most other devices.
Recreating a typical living room environment at 100 Lux and the N86 8MP still offers up usable images without a flash, though the N82 is still a capable device thanks to the patented flash control system. Both devices serve up usable images at variable distances, though the latter starts to add some noise with distance.
The second half of Damian’s test focussed on using only the light from the flash, to show how capable the N86 8MP is even though it doesn’t have the Xenon flash. The results are pretty convincing and thanks to the controlled environment is a true like-for-like comparison.
You can see the entire presentation below, together with some more specific information from Damian on what is happening in each shot. Let us know what you think in the comments.
Related posts:
- Being flash isn’t always the answer
- Interview with Valtteri Eroma, head of design for Nokia Eseries
- Listen in on the Conversations
Tags | N82, N86 8MP, Nokia N82, Nokia N86 8MP, Xenon
July 30th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Putting a 5MPx device against a 8MPx one is not really a fair comparison. Besides, I just hope that this article isn’t hinting that Nokia’s future flagship imaging device won’t have Xenon…
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Damian Reply:
July 30th, 2009 at 11:56 am
@laalaa,
I see your point. As said in the material and intro this was put together by popular demand, it’s not intended to compare 5mp against 8mp.
Personally (I suppose I’m a little biased towards as I worked with many others on it) I’ve always been fond of the N82, principally because of the camera’s all round performance. Many others feel the same it seems based on numerous online discussions etc. So I thought it would be helpful to those looking to upgrade from the N82 to perhaps the N86 8MP, to compare side by side allowing them to judge for themselves with more information to hand whether they made the move or not. I have and and I am not regretting it one bit, far from it, but again I’m biased to the N86 8MP too
Let us know if there’s any other information you would like us to share, we’ll see what we can do. atb
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July 30th, 2009 at 11:52 am
@laalaa Megapixel count isnt the only thing that goes into making a good camera.
For an photo freak like me,id take a larger sensor over a powerful flash any day.
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July 30th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
I like the presentation and do find it quite impressive. However, I can only imagine the cameras were not hand held in this test, right?
I am asking, because in low light xenon flashes are better with freezing the moment, whereas LEDs don’t do that so well, right? Would you say hand or subject movement is more obvious with LED flashes?
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Damian Reply:
July 30th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
@Bas Heetebrij,
Good question.
These were not taken using a bracket holding the handsets but I did use a stand to ‘rest’ the edge of the product on to simulate resting either device on a wall or other similar object you may use in the real world. This was to ensure 100% apples with apples comparison.
Yes, xenon as reported elsewhere can provide an ‘image freezing’ benefit over LED. Xenon provides its illumination during a spike roughly equivalent to 1/25,000 to 1/50,000 second. Whereas LED provides its illumination more akin to turning on an additional very bright light for the entire duration the shutter is open. In the case of xenon, as a result of this short burst of light it can freeze subjects. However, in situations where there is some ambient light and the subject/camera moves, it is possible to see a second blurred image depending on the amount of movement. The first being clear, the 2nd blurred. You can overcome this by using faster shutter speeds but that results in less influence on the overall exposure from the ambient light and therefore a harsher/’very obviously taken with flash’ end result. We aim to create as natural end result as possible so use a slower rather than faster shutter speed.
The N86 8MP makes this a little more complicated, as in the earlier story it features AMBR (Automatic Motion Blur Reduction). This compensates for any detected (in real time) subject and/or camera movement by using a faster shutter speed, whereas the N82 does not have this capability.
So when considering how to ensure an apples with apples comparison I opted for supporting both devices as you may in the real world, although I recognize 1. that’s not always possible and 2. different people have different hand holding capabilities. In situations where camera/subject movement is present you would potentially get different results driven 1. by the N86’s AMBR and 2. the N82’s xenon flash freezing effect. Hope that helps. atb
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Bas Heetebrij Reply:
July 31st, 2009 at 9:36 pm
@Damian,
Thanks so much for coming back to all of us. I sincerely appreciate that. Your reply is very informative and helpful.
I think you may be happy to know I am extremely close to buying an unlocked N86. After having had the Nokia 9500 and E71, it will be quite a change for me, but I was so impressed by the stills and video that I am convinced I’ll get over the T9 thing… (if the N86 only had a full keyboard
).
Thanks again.
BR.
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Bas Heetebrij Reply:
August 3rd, 2009 at 1:26 pm
@Damian,
I should correct myself… yesterday I bought an unlocked N86, mostly due to your convincing work. I am really excited to check out the product.
Bas
July 30th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Bas makes an excellent point, especially considering the “real world” use of most camera phones.
In a typical living room or pub type setting one is likely capturing images of people who are not likely to be sitting/standing absolutely still. To say nothing of attempting to catch images of kids indoors.
How about a comparison in a real world scenario from my life as an example: 2 toddler boys in the living room- even with attempts to tell them to be still. In a situation such as this I sometimes resort to using the sequential shot setting so as to have a chance of having a decent image.
What say you?
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July 30th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Any possibility of having the exif-information of all photos published? Mostly interested about the shutter times.
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July 30th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Why will no one from Nokia simply address the Xenon issue? Just say why Nokia is against including Xenon and be done with it. This speculation for and against is annoying and in my opinion puts Nokia in a poor light (pardon the pun). For once just be straight with the paying customers. We can handle the truth.
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Nuno Pereira Reply:
July 30th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
@Dave, as it was said in here (http://conversations.nokia.com/2009/07/27/being-flash-isnt-always-the-answer/): “The obvious question to ask, particularly when comparing the N86 with the N82 is why it doesn’t have a Xenon flash. Despite the fact it doesn’t really need one in most situations, the team tried hard to get one in but found the added bulk would have a significant impact on the whole look and feel of the device. Like other Nseries devices, design plays a key part in the N86 and much focus (sorry, couldn’t help myself) was put on ensuring the device looks as good as it performs.”.
I think Nokia was honnest…
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Damian Reply:
July 30th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
@Dave,
Hi.
You’ll be pleased to know Nokia is not against xenon flash
As explained in the earlier article relating to this topic http://conversations.nokia.com/2009/07/27/being-flash-isnt-always-the-answer/ , xenon was studied for inclusion in the N86 8MP. Including it would however resulted in a larger product. Whilst I appreciate that some would buy a larger device, in product creation we have to look at multiple aspects which will influence its overall appeal. When looking specifically at the xenon/LED/size/design trade-off we also took into account the actual performance benefit of the latest generation LED vs. xenon. We also looked at this against our overall goal of improving low light image and video capture. Xenon is one way we can improve but not the only one and it comes as said with a price – size.
Over recent years there has been significant development in the area of LED lighting, whereas development in capacitors and xenon has not been so aggressive. In some cases, e.g. the automotive industry LED is now seen as the preferred choice over xenon headlamps such is the development in this area.
There are over 6.5 billion people on this planet. To make life more interesting we’re all slightly different. Which means, despite our best attempts there can never be a perfect device for everyone. For some I hope we can of course but for others we have to accept that there maybe a more suitable product from Nokia’s portfolio. But equally each product needs to be commercially viable and that means ensuring that the product appeals to sufficient number of people to achieve this viability.
I believe for the majority of the people we originally developed the N86 8MP for, we have created a fabulously balanced product e.g. great music player, great camera, great navigation device and more all wrapped in a compact but premium shell.
But, as said we accept that for some, we may have to wait until another day
br
Damian
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July 30th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
This article pretty much answer that moving up from the N82 to the N86 is definitely an smart upgrade. But how about doing a 8MP camera phone comparison with phones that also feature xenon flash?
Maybe compare the N86 to some 8MP SE, SAMSUNG, LG and other phones?
The N86 is far advance in it’s optics compared to the N82; but we are not convinced that the N86 LED flash is better than the N82 xenon flash – and it’s flash vs xenon only.
The only thing we are convinced in your demo is that the N86’s optice is so advance that it can help produce good photos in low light situations.
We still think putting the xenon on top of the great N86 optic withe led produce even more amazing results; and even if the device will be a bit bulkier.
Why don’t you put up a survey to see if people are willing to have a more bulkier camera phone to have xenon on it?
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July 30th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Would xenon and Led both on the n86 be great? yes, but i’m happy with the variable aperature and optics overall. my question to damian is if we will see the option to not have compression on the photos. the n86 is using some heavy compression to keep the file size down and honestly, with most people using wifi and 3G, i don’t see the point.
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Damian Reply:
July 30th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
@milan,
I believe what you are refering to is not connected to compression but an extremely complex and intertwined set of issues and trade-offs relating to image tuning. We are looking at this and are moving towards a FW update which will improve image quality even further. Can’t say more than that at this time
atb
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July 30th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Well, i have to admit, i wasn’t expecting such good results on it.
It surely amazed me!
But i think most of the people in here are expressing their doubts wrong: I think what they’re trying to say is that this sensor would be even more capable if it had xenon flash.
Well, i couldn’t agree more with them, and despite my ignorance about this issue (photography), i think the common sense speaks louder, and xenon is xenon.It would be awesome with xenon flash.
But still, as said before (and quoted by me above), Nokia’s intention was to build a “sexy” phone, with an awesome camera, and we all know that in order to have xenon flash, it would have to be fat. Fat isn’t sexy, we all know that!
Ok, i’ll rest my case now, and even knowing that i won’t definitely buy this one (only because i’m an e-series guy, and photo’s for my are just a small part of a phone), i’ll spread the word to whoever is interested in an awesome camera phone: This is good stuff!
Damian, thank’s for your work, and congratulations for the quality on it!
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Damian Reply:
July 30th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
@Nuno Pereira,
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July 31st, 2009 at 5:21 am
Thanks for the reply Damian. Looking forward to the NAM version to ship! Have any idea when it will be? Ever since my n82 broke (my fault) i’ve been waiting for this one
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:42 am
Its an interesting comparison, and at the very least shows that the N86 has considerably better post-processing (noise reduction) over the N82 in lower lighting conditions.
However, ultimately I don’t believe the argument for LED illumination holds – how many dedicated digital cameras use LED flashes? That’ll be approx none?
The N86 is compelling, but not that much over the N82.
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Damian Reply:
July 31st, 2009 at 1:09 pm
@Dave,
I hope this doesn’t come across as argumentative but I would like to take the opportunity to reply to the points you raise.
Perhaps the point I should have made earlier is this:
There is a certain amount of space for a lighting solution in the product. For that space which provides the greatest amount of illumination? For the space available in a mobile device LED is now very close to xenon.
I have seen some xenon handsets (which will remain nameless) provide a ‘tick box’ solution. In other words, yes it says xenon on the box but the flash tube and capacitors are so small that the output is less than I have seen even from older generation dual LED solutions. So it’s the real performance that matters, not just what it says on the box, hence why we put this comparison together. The N82 is a known benchmark for many and therefore provides a good reference to illustrate the capability of the N86 8MP.
If low light is important to you it’s whether the device can really provide the images/videos in such lighting conditions. That we believe N86 8MP vs. many other devices does extremely well. Some may say it’s the best in low light. But I’ll let you decide. How it actually achieves this result at the end of the day is, dare I say it….
….irrelevant?
If the device was ONLY a camera and included no cellular/wireless, music, text input, A-GPS + compass, large internal memory etc etc, then yes we would had have a great deal more room for a much bigger xenon tube and huge capacitors. In that case yes xenon would be a better solution for just images than LED. But to remove items such as those listed would be making significant compromises to other important aspects of the devices which create it’s all-round appeal.
From my perspective the message I take away from many discussions and debates such as this one is NOT that you must have xenon flash BUT that you MUST have great low light recording capability. It’s our role therefore to find the best way of delivering that within a given product taking into account the size, feature set, design, performance and available technology.
atb
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Dave Reply:
July 31st, 2009 at 2:03 pm
@Damian,
Not even slightly argumentative, thats a good argument.
I know exactly the handsets of which you speak that have Xenon flash built in, and to say that they’re a disappointment is an understatement.
For video there is little doubt that the N86/dual LED solution is by far and away the best, and its performance for still (motionless) imaging is without any doubt.
However I still believe that as good as it is in the N86 implementation, LED is still way behind a well metered Xenon (N82) for non-optimal low-light situations – ie. photographs of children who are incapable of sitting sufficiently still – LED cannot freeze the moment anywhere near as well.
There is a lot in the box of these devices as you have said, but the problem for me is the benchmark as set by the N82. It isn’t by any stretch of the imagination a large handset, and is arguably still the overall leader in low/sub optimal light imaging. An N82 with the lens technology of the N86 would be an incredibly impressive imaging device.
It is a case of getting a balance though – both N82 and N86 excel in different areas in low light imaging in differing ways.
Personally the N82 fits the bill better, although owning an N95, and with the lack of N82s on the market, the N86 is the most likely upgrade path.
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Xpress0705 Reply:
August 1st, 2009 at 4:44 pm
@Damian,
Damian can’t Nokia implement both Xenon flash for photos along with dual LEDS for videos as Samsung managed in the slim 13.3mm Pixon12 & SE in C905 and 12MP Satio???
This am sure would be the best solution for a flagship cameraphone from Nokia.Everyone would be satisfied and no debate between Xenon vs LED would arise…
Thnx in advance..
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:02 pm
I prefer the natural light to be honest when taking photos xenon flash I recon is to bright even on cameras (can relsult in looking fake) they have just proved to us that xenon flash is not needed anymore,
so why do people still like xenon???? I would prefer a really good sensor and the nokia n86 is the KING of mobile photography!
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Just to clear up my/our mind/s, is it possible to you guys make a comparison video with N82 vs N86?
I have almost no doubts the N86 will beat N82, but still, i’d like to see the result. (and i think i’m not the only one)
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August 1st, 2009 at 12:14 am
Why don’t you take a look at this article:
http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_claims_n86_8mp_doesnt_need_any_xenon_world_chuckles-news-1048.php
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August 1st, 2009 at 4:45 am
if most of the people want xenon flash then why Nokia does include it.Do they make phones for themselves or for people?
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August 1st, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Would xenon and Led both on the n86 be great? yes, but i’m happy with the variable aperature and optics overall. my question to damian is if we will see the option to not have compression on the photos. the n86 is using some heavy compression to keep the file size down and honestly, with most people using wifi and 3G, i don’t see the point.
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August 1st, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Putting a 5MPx device against a 8MPx one is not really a fair comparison. Besides, I just hope that this article isn’t hinting that Nokia’s future flagship imaging device won’t have Xenon…
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August 1st, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Thanks for the reply Damian. Looking forward to the NAM version to ship! Have any idea when it will be? Ever since my n82 broke (my fault) i’ve been waiting for this one
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August 2nd, 2009 at 8:44 am
@Damian
Unfortunately for you, I am another potential N86 buyer that ultimately decided against it because of the flash. Here’s my little rant:
The argument that “N86 doesn’t need Xenon” because it “typically requires a flash in far fewer situations than most other devices”, is completely irrelevant to the issue.
Ok, so the N86 can take good pics at low light without flash, good job. This would’ve been the case whether the N86 had LED, Xenon, or even no flash.
The point is, when the situation comes where N86 DOES need a flash, the Xenon will do much better than LEDs. It’s not like there’s a situation where having LED would suddenly make the whole “use a flash” idea more favorable than if it had a Xenon — when I don’t need a flash, I don’t need a flash; when I need a flash, I need a flash; and when I’m using a top-quality product, I want top-quality results, which LEDs fail to deliver compared to Xenon. Agreed?
The other argument, where you claim that Xenon flashes might create a double image. As you pointed out, a similar problems exists with LED flashes, and the team of engineers prevented it by using AMBR to improve the shutter speed.
Impressive, but hardly a valid argument: I’m pretty sure you can find a similar, if not identical, solution for Xenon’s problem.
Lastly, you touched on aesthetics being a major factor in the decision. Come on, the design team at Nokia are a smart bunch, I’m sure they could’ve designed a similarly appealing phone even if it was slightly bigger/thicker.
I know that at this point, nothing can be changed about this whole problem. But just fyi, as you may have known or heard from feedbacks, I also believe that, functionally, the best solution to flashes for camera and video will be a single Xenon and a single LED.
I’m really hoping that I can be the owner of the next N-series phone, and be proud of every single aspect of it. But for now, I’m will still be staying with the N82 as my top choice Nokia camera phone.
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Damian Reply:
August 3rd, 2009 at 1:56 pm
@Andy, @Xpress0705 and others.
I’ll try and answer as many of your questions as possible. I’ve combined them here in one reply.
Firstly,
I’d like to reiterate the reasoning behind the comparison:
I could see many people wanted to see how the N86 performed in low light. As an area we have made improvements with this product I wanted to share as much detail as possible in what is clearly an important area for people, therefore allowing you to make a fully informed decision whether this product would fit your needs or not. My intent was no more than that. End of story. If you interpret more than that then that I have to say that is down to you. Without being familiar with our future product plans I would encourage you not to make any other conclusions other than does the N86 8MP fit your needs. If it does, then I’m very happy. If not I’ll understand. Maybe we have something in the future or elsewhere in our portfolio which will be more appropriate for you. With over 6.5 billion people on this planet we are all different, it would be boring if we weren’t.
I have read with interest the many comments on various sites this has comparison has sparked. I want to thank all of those people for taking the trouble to post comments. I can’t answer all of them of course but through this forum I will try and answer as many as I can. What I take out of all of these discussions is how important low light recording is to people. For some I can see that this means they believe xenon and only xenon will do. And that’s fine, everyone is entitled to their opinions of course and I am not going to get involved in a debate on which is best as they both have their own pros and cons. Outside of the N86 8MP, I hope you’ll understand that of course I can’t comment on our plans for the future, but I can say that we see low light recording as very important. Our research and development continues to investigate ways that we can make improvements in this area.
Why did I use the N82 in the comparison? Yes it’s a product which was introduced over 18 months ago. However, it’s also regarded by many as a benchmark in low light, principally because of it’s xenon flash. Furthermore it wouldn’t be ethical of me to use a competitor’s product in such a comparison, so I used one of our own. As I was involved in the N82 as much as I was with the N86 8MP it’s a product I also know very well
So from my perspective what better product to use as a reference. Again it’s down to you how you interpret the results, I simply wanted to provide a known reference point so you could measure the improvements we have made with the N86 8MP.
Re: Xenon and LED in a single product:
Yes hypothetically it can be done, there’s no technical reason why not. But, this would create a situation where you would either need to increase the size of the product (using N86 8MP purely as a reference point) or you would need to reduce the performance of a component or remove it completely. When comparing against other products there are other factors which need to be taken into account. Some examples could include, size of internal memory, battery capacity, whether there are physical keys or not, music playback time, connectivity options such as FM Tx etc. For some these are compromises that maybe you are willing to take, for others they are not.
In the case of N86 8MP, as already mentioned in a previous reply, we wanted to create a well rounded product which offered, great camera, great music and great navigation wrapped by premium materials in a single elegant product, I believe we achieved that goal. However, for ‘this’ product whilst it includes Nokia’s best camera to date with new benefits such as the 28mm wide-angle lens, large variable aperture and AMBR to name a few it wasn’t designed to be a ‘camera’. I hope that doesn’t get quoted out of context. There’s a subtle but important difference I’m trying to make here which I hope you can see. We have huge amounts of research which supports the desire to have a well rounded converged device and it’s this that we reacted to with this specific product. For some I can see how tantalising the camera we have developed is and you feel let down that we weren’t able to squeeze in xenon flash. As explained elsewhere we tried but chose not to compromise the size/design or all round capability. Yes there are other products which do provide xenon flash and some which provide both but you may find some aspects missing in these products which the N86 8MP provides. As said it’s down to you whether these are valuable or not. Based on what we set out to achieve with this product those items we kept in this product are as important as xenon to others. If after you’ve reviewed the material and what the N86 8MP does outside of its camera it’s not for you that’s fine and I hope we’ll develop a more appropriate product for you in the future. That doesn’t mean Nokia doesn’t listen, far from it. It’s just today for you we may not have the perfect product. That doesn’t make the N86 8MP a bad product. If it did then there would be many other products out there which would need to be tarnished with the same brush as the number of products with xenon are definitely amongst the minority. I would suggest this is down to the size of this component, the flash and the capacitors and the trade-off that need to be made to include such components.
Does this mean Nokia doesn’t understand the benefits of xenon? No. Does this mean Nokia will never introduce a product with xenon flash? No.
Using a xenon flash plus SINGLE LED solution maybe ok for stills but based on our experience single LED solutions generally do not provide sufficient output for video. So beware of ‘tick box’ solutions here. Certainly comparing the dual LED from the N86 8MP to a single LED solution would mean a significant reduction in light output and if I was asked to comment on a single LED’s suitability for video on whether it would be worthwhile, I would probably say not. At least today. I really think you need to have the kind of LED strength in the N86 8MP to be able to get any worthwhile benefit. Would I like to create a product with the best of both world’s, absolutely. But I will still want to create a well rounded product, that’s the promise of Nokia Nseries. What does that mean in practice? You’ll have to wait and see
, sorry!
I also would encourage you to be mindful that not all xenon solutions are equal. The size of the flash tube and capacitors make a huge difference. I’ve seen some very good xenon implementations and others where they have been weaker than LED equipped products. I’m not going to name any products here of course…
Re the possibility of double image with xenon:
This doesn’t happen with LED as the light source is on continuously during the exposure. With xenon you effectively get two exposures, one created when the xenon fires and the second created by the ambient light. With LED it’s just an always on mix of LED and ambient and it doesn’t change during the exposure. Yes you are more likely to get image blur with LED than xenon, but as said and I emphasise the word ‘potentially’, you can get a double/blurred image with xenon. But this depends on the ambient lighting level and subject/camera movement. But granted and never tried to suggest anything other that xenon does have benefits in this situation. Yes the inclusion of AMBR can reduce/eliminate this problem with LED. Expect to see AMBR in other products in the future BTW.
I hope you find that useful additional information.
atb
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Andy Reply:
August 4th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
@Damian
I absolutely understand that the aim of N86 is to create a very well-rounded device, and I do understand that in such devices, compromises must’ve been made, and it’s all about balancing between many aspects of the phone. And don’t get me wrong, N86 is an impressive device.
The only reason I felt the flash was disappointing was because N86 and the N9x line seem to have converged into a similar set of functions. I would’ve appreciated it more if one line of products would focus more on imaging, while another would put more emphasis on audio playback, or media storage.
Of course, I have no idea how the next gen phones for these series will turn out, and I don’t know if each line already had “specializations” in mind for the future. So all I can comment on is what I know about. With all of this in mind, I was hoping the N8x line would be focusing on photography, which is the reason why I was not as impressed as I would’ve been if N86 simply 1-upped the N82 in that department.
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August 3rd, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Wow, Damian wrote out a whole essay in response – that is good PR. I appreciate every word in your post.
I guess if we want Nokia to make drastic change, consumer need to provide a drastic response… But it seems unlikely to happen…
Right the minor group (phone geeks) wants a super power flash, while the average Joe is more than happy to buy the N86 as it is.
Well, results have shown there’s more Joe than Geeks around. =)
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August 4th, 2009 at 4:39 am
Nokia converastions please conduct a survey on what people want xenon or dual led or both?
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August 6th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Hi, I would like to enquire. In terms of overall camera performance, which one is better? I am currently owning a N82 and I feel a bit reluctant to upgrade to the N86.
GSMArena said that the N86 performed worse than the other 8MP phones they reviewed. You can check it out the the gsmarena’s N86 review. I was a bit sad that they did not include a dual CPU and a 3D graphic accelerator in the N86. Lacking these two essential elements means that the N86 video recording capability and smoothness of the user interface are reduced. The N86 gallery tends to lag and it did not perform as well as my N82.
I tried out the N86 at the Nokia store and pitch it up against my N82 for a real world comparison and found that the N82 produced more natural pictures, both with and without flash. N86 had this tendency to over saturate the colours of the subject and although it may look more appealing to the eyes, it is the natural colours that everybody wants.
In short, I hope that Nokia will produce a better camera phone that can fulfill all our needs since I believe the sole reason majority of the 6.5 billion people in this world purchased the Nseries was to replace their standalone digital cameras. Please don’t let all these hopes of the world end up in vain.
Thank you very much for the N82.
Kindest regards,
Hung Yih
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Damian Reply:
August 6th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
@Hung Yih,
Hi,
some very good observations made here.
Re image qulaity. This is very subjective area. With N86 8MP our intent is to reproduce vibrant colours but which still remain true to your minds eye. We prioritised this very highly. It is different to N82, I would agree perhaps more vibrant but this was our intent. I appreciate that for some there maybe a preference to slightly more natural colour reproduction. In our own testing which is conducted reguarly of such aspects including colour reproduction we find the majority prefer colours as we have been aiming for with the N86 8MP. In doing so results in some trade-offs which for some may not be to there liking. We used the basis of full screen viewing on large monitors as the viewing reference. If however you spend your time looking predominantly at 100% crops then I accept that you may find other products to provide a more suitable balance. But to our mind that neither represents the majority or most likely way of viewing the content, so optimising for the 100% crop viewing scenario would have been counter productive and resulted in completely different tuning given our focus on colour reproduction.
Some products try and acheive the same but more through increasing contrast and saturation. This creates false colour and leaves shadows lacking in detail. These are areas where we believe N86 8MP performs well.
Having said all this do expect a FW update in the future which I feel quite confident will bring further improvements in image quality and will go a long way to answering those comments, possibly all of them. We’re still working on it however so can’t provide more details than that at this time.
re video performance, the image processor in N86 is much more powerful than the one used in previous Nokia products. One of the benefits coupled to the way the data is processed from the sensor meass much greater detail in N86 recorded videos vs many other mobile devices. You’ll also note that as as result of this the bit rate for video is much higher than in N82.
BTW, when you compared instore the N82 and N86 was this on the product’s respective displays or did you take the images and view those on the same monitor? Reason I ask is that the OLED display of the N86 will provide much more vivid colours than the dsiplay of the N82.
br
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Hung Yih Reply:
August 7th, 2009 at 3:37 am
@Damian,
I compared the photos on my laptop. N86 does produce more vivid photos and the details are there, I think this is due to its larger sensor and higher megapixels. Despite the odds, the N82 also performed quite well, given that it is only a 5 megapixels phone.
I was just wondering, why do N86 and N82 produce very cold and pale coloured photos sometimes. Sometimes the photos are remarkable but other times, it is just plain washed out and looked a bit blue. Will a firmware update fix this?
Furthermore, I would like to ask, will there be a firmware update for the N82 soon? This is because the N82 tends to produce paler colours and more washed out photos compared to the N95 and N86. Can you please fix this problem? Thank you very much.
Best regards,
Hung Yih
Proud owner of the N82 =)
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Damian Reply:
August 8th, 2009 at 11:10 am
@Hung Yih,
re colours. we have made a lot of improvements in colour reproduction with the N86 vs previous products including the situations where it may ‘read’ the lighting and colour wrongly. So colour should be more consistent than before. If there are specific situations where you find colours are not as you would expect then we’d like to know more details so we can reproduce those situations ourselves.
RE N82 FW update. I don’t believe there are any planned FW updates in the pipeline for this product.
br
August 8th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Just 1 question, why did Nokia stoppd producing N82? Is it just a marketing gimmick to stop N82 eating into da market share of 95, 85 n now N86?
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August 9th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Damian,
I hope that the digital compass information will be included in the EXIF data in a future update. Do you know it his will be the case?
Thanks!
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Damian Reply:
August 9th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
@Robert Webbe,
Hi Robert, as far as I know it’s not a candidate for inclusion in this product. One of the issues to overcome is calibration of the compass which needs doing from time to time so using in the camera may not be practical in the N86 at least because of this. In future products this could be overcome maybe and then enabled. Do you have any specific aspects you want to see this enhance by having such information in the EXIF? Would be good to hear about them.
br
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August 15th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
so we can see that at da end of da day nokia n82 device is far better then n86,in da basis of camera at least. more over who needs 8 mega pixel camera in a cell phone.5 MG pixl is more then enough. i would luv to buy n82
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August 25th, 2009 at 8:20 am
Hi, I am a super fans of nokia and using this brand for over 12 years since college although my friends ask me to change other better brands.
I am using N82 now and I would like to buy a new mobile with touch screen and better camera to replace the existing one. However, it’s really hard to find this mobile at Nokia.
After reading the low light phototgraphy test report, I am so disppointed on the new mobile phone…. it’s got 8MP, so it seems have better camera, but it’s using LED flash light…..
And it’s NOT touch screen….
You know without using the flash would bring one problem is hand shake, then massive noise will show up in the photo. Who would bring the bracket holding the handset?
Please try to bring back the xeron flash light, over 8M pixel and touch screen for us! It is so common in this century! Other brand can do it, why don’t you?
Thanks for your kind attention.
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September 9th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
Hi..I would like to know whether can we change the image compression settings of Nokia n86 ?..Also, is there a firmware update coming for lowering the compression of n86 pictures so that they are better..
Looking forward to ur reply..thanks
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October 19th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
@ Damian & general
I’m very impressed with your replies and your dedication to answering everyone’s questions.
I’m hoping to be a user of the N86, but unfortunately, I don’t have one on hand to play with nor am I able to until I make the decision to buy.
I’ve recently spent an amassed amount of time researching the benefits of the N86 vs my current N82. The N85 initially caught my eye with the FM transmitter, as I am a business man and I do an amazing amount of driving and an FM transmitter is by far better than constantly burning CD’s. Then I heard about the N86, however, as any user fond of the N82, the lack of the xenon flash on such an esteemed device raises suspicions. With due diligence, I’m convinced that the N86 will definitely fair better than my N82, however, I do have a few questions about the camera.
I did find that the N82 was extremely convenient in terms of not carrying a digital camera with me at all times, however, I noticed the compression of the photos were very ‘heavy’ that a lot of fine detail was lost (unless taken in macro mode). In some reviews in terms of picture quality (resolution and such), the compression is also noticeable in similar MP handheld devices, and also a comparison vs an actual 8MP camera.
-Is there a way to reduce or eliminate that compression (I run a 16GB card on my N82, and I have no problems with file size, plus regular off-loading works well too – on top of that, larger SDHC card’s pricing have dropped, making them highly affordable). If I had a choice to forgo the 8GB internal memory for xenon flash, I would definitely opt for the xenon flash.
I also noticed the N86 takes pictures using a more ‘vivid’ white balance, which may create problems with proper color reproduction (N82 vs N86, its a toss up in different situations). However, I do recognize the huge step in the lens in the N86, and I believe the potential to tweak it with future FW updates will in the future will outperform many ‘camera’ phones. My only qualm, like a previous commentor, is that I feel that the N8# series is converging with the N9#, with few differences. Though I feel the N86 has made a huge step differentiating itself from the N9 series, I feel that it should focus more on the multimedia aspects (hint hint, xenon flash)
-Is there a way to switch between the white balance differences aside from the usual auto, day, night, flourescent 1/2/3 etc
-As for hardware wise, I was wondering if it was physically possible in terms of compatibility to swap hardware pieces in the N86, for eg, swap the LED flash with my N82 Xenon flash?
Since the N82 has become so ‘out-dated’ (ironic to say that since I’ve felt like I’ve had this phone for 2 years since 1st week of release), I’m experienced enough to do phone hardware swaps as I’ve swapped out many existing pieces of the N82, alas, I feel the motherboard is failing after a new screen fixes my previous screen problem 90% of the time, but there’s still screen errors… finding OEM parts is becoming a difficult task.
[Background - Fan of Nokia, first phone was nokia 6200 (i think), still a huge fan - owner of self-modified & working Motorola Ming A1200, Nokia N82, N95 8GB, Blackberry Bold, and many other less-er phones.
As for those who use the N82 frequently, and complain about battery life, you can get an large capacity batteries, although none are listed, I've acquired true and tested 1250 mAh batteries, matching the original battery specs - almost perfect minus the tight fit - lasts 3 days on today's date's latest N82 FW with moderate use.
Currently contemplating N86 vs Apple Iphone 3GS - may buy both factory unlocked. Such a tough choice. I love Nokia too much...]
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